Monday, January 18, 2010

Hey Etsy

Remember when all sellers pretty damn unanimously cried out NOOOOO to you guys when bandied the idea of an In-House Payment System?

Yeah, we didn't think you did since you're now looking to hire a programmer to do that very thing.

To quote many from that long ago thread "DO NOT WANT!"

45 Comments:

nowwhat? said...

Do you know how much extra money etsy will make from an in house payment system?

Rob does.

Do you know how much money etsy will make by holding our money for days before releasing it?

The investors do.

Why would anyone care what the sellers want?

Baroness said...

Thank you, no.

Watching Etsy trying to 'fix' things is like watching someone put a brand new roof on a dilapidated shack with no windows or doors.

They just create new problems without addressing and fixing the existing ones. Case in point, the revamping of the Art category. Yes, I believe it's long overdue, and a worthwhile investment in time and energy, but not before they fix the tag abuse (r get rid of tags altogether). I envision exactly the same problems the Dolls and Miniature people encountered when they got their category. You can have an expert taxonomist create the perfect set of categories and subcats, but you can't make it work unless everyone plays by the same rules, which we've seen time and time again, everyone doesn't.

Incidentally, I still don't have anything in my shop letting my items upload to google base. Just sayin'.

So now they want to build an in house payment system. Let's hang wallpaper on those rotted, crumbling walls. Doesn't matter that the floors are falling into the basement (search) and the house is overridden with rats (resellers)and we have no tools to do the job (uh-tools), just keep adding the decorative touches and maybe the tenants won't notice.

At least not until they've moved in, unpacked and set up housekeeping. Of course, there is that new roof and wallpaper, so you hold out hope that fixes will come. But then, after countless calls to the landlord and either being ignored or placated with 'it's on our list of things to do', you look out the window and see them putting in a brand new olympic size swimming pool. Yes, that makes everything so much better. Not.

Etsy is just one big mess. And it's getting bigger and messier by the day. The garbage is piling up, and the garbage men only come once in awhile and only take some of the garbage away.

Bailing out a boat with a thimble?

itchymonkeybutt said...

seriously? requesting that your in house lead architect for a payment program has done something at least once? once is enough????

that is so fucked.

Marilyn said...

I don't think it's a bad idea if it's done correctly. Especially if it's instead of paypal fees.

The Funny One said...

Does this sentence in the 1st para of the JD scare you as much as me?
"You can explain the difference between a wire transfer and a direct deposit."

Well, ya'all'll fit right in with the rest of Etsy Admins who don't know their asses from their elbows.

And Etsy In-House Pmt Sys is all about more fee-profits for Etsy (do they need more than 105%???) and don't mean jack shit for all the sellers who no longer sell on Etsy. No sales, no additional fees, easy as being an Admin yourself!

incredulous said...

I'm sitting here shaking my head. I simply cannot believe they are reviving that idea after the more than adamant negative reactions from the sellers the last time it hit the forums.

It boggles the mind...

Really? said...

That is something that scares me royally.
1. My hubby is a payment gateway programmer, it's a big job for a bespoke system that could take years to work fully on a venue where the variables are different for everyone.
2. Paypal holding onto my money is fair enough they are regulated and safe. I don't want Etsy holding my bank details so I can get the money that is rightly mine why do you think I use PP in the first place.

I agree with nowwhat? they will hold our money for the month til fee day, take all the fees out (and I bet its more than PP charges) then give us the pittance that is left. All the while the money is sitting in their bank not our gaining interest.

No chance!

PAID said...

I won't use it. If that is all they intend to offer in future, I'll limit customer payments to personal checks. I trust strangers and the PO more than I trust Etsy not to fuck it up.

Coccyx said...

I guess I don't get the fierce "someone's going to get stabbed!!!" opposition to Etsy having their own checkout system.

Sure, they could screw it up, but more likely, since they don't have real site engineers, they'll just license existing, working technology from someone anyway. So they could screw it up, but what if they don't?

Hmm...we wouldn't have the bizarre Paypal bugs listed on this very site. We wouldn't have Paypal holding our money for ages for no good reason. Most of the opposition I see is from people thinking that it's going to be just like Paypal, which I agree wouldn't be the best thing.

But I see it as being a straight shopping cart and checkout system, like you see at Amazon.com, Target.com, or pretty much EVERY ecommerce site. Even little mom and pop sites have their own systems to process credit cards. Etsy's just been lazy, in my opinion.

So if a good system were the case, where would the "ZOMG!!!111!!" part be? Amazon doesn't hold your money for a week before they allow your shipment to go out, so why assume Etsy would? Etsy would get a bigger cut (without actually raising the fees I would hope, for their sake)? Maybe then they could hire someone who knows what the hell they're doing for once.

I think we're too used to Paypal's dominance to see how seamless a good integrated system would be.

One good side would be that people would know that they can pay with a credit card, instead of seeing the Paypal logo and moving on, not knowing that they don't have to sign up for Paypal to pay with it. That could mean more business from window shoppers.

I was actually surprised to read that thread about how much people loved the Paypal way and didn't want integrated checkout. I would've thought the opposite, at least from the Etsy brown-nosers. Maybe someday it'll be explained to me in a way that doesn't involve just saying "because Etsy sucks and so their checkout will suck, case closed."

As for the fees...I guess we'll see. I don't think it would remove the payment fees, but it couldn't possibly make them bigger than the combined amount both Etsy and Paypal take out. It could be less, or it could mean that Etsy would have more of it in order to work on the site.

Ugabugabowls said...

I really don't understand why they are looking to create a whole new infrastructure on top of a broken infrastructure.

If they add their own checkout, it adds something new to every single shop. No matter how small that change, that's a MAJOR site change and the coding for it can bring about untold numbers of complications.

My first reason for questioning this move is can they handle adding another layer of complication to an already broken structure? Why not get your foundation working properly before complicating it?

My second reason for questioning is that I have to wonder if when this is rolled out, are they going to monopoly and force every purchase to use their checkout system rather than adding it as another option? If customers suddenly have to use their checkout rather than a checkout system they recognize, a lot of people aren't going to buy. Especially for those who are aware of Etsy's sinking reputation.

lessa said...

coccyx,

This statement of yours is key to many who oppose Etsy having an in house system.

"Sure, they could screw it up, but more likely, since they don't have real site engineers, they'll just license existing, working technology from someone anyway."

Etsy does not like to go with already written and proven software. If they were search would not be a mess and Paypal would have been integrated a long time ago. They like to write everything themselves, start from scratch, put their own spin on it. That is what has many worried.

If they had shown themselves to use common sense I wouldn't worry so much about an IHPS.

Coccyx said...

lessa-

Wait, so the majority of people on Etsy are aware of Etsy's lazy, "cobble it together" attitude? If that's the case then I can see why there's the opposition. But that boggles my mind. It seems like most people (said Etsy brown-nosers) are content and even wet in the right places over every little thing Etsy does that they mix up into somehow meaning that sales are going to fall from the sky like magic.

I guess I'm just confused that so many people are against it when they're drooling over such silly things as the recent change that lets you change your avatar if you're been muted, which seems to be the most ridiculous "we workd hard on this for months" feature I've even heard of.

So I guess I'm getting that the issue is not the checkout system itself, but Etsy's possible implementation of it. That makes much more sense. I just didn't think so many people would even think about that.

Eveline said...

Nonononononononoooo... Etsy fucks up far too many things to handle my money! But then again, is this why they're not too bothered to look into that Paypal-bug? hmmm...

NoTrust said...

For Coccyx..

My objections are this. I remember it took them like 6 months to a year to get the billing system fixed when they changed that. The bills were frightening. I know all those site fixes, like the community page, that took awhile to fix when it really shouldn't have.

I also know what some of the admin will do. Things they shouldn't do. I don't have a trust in the admin. Heck, I only vaguely know them and met some of them once. Why would I trust someone who constantly plays favorites and if they get mad takes it out in sometimes the most righteous ways?

Then the fees. I believe in my heart you're right they won't add fees, but you can be certain they will raise them. And, who knows how much it will be by? I don't think Paypal's holding of money is wrong if done properly. I do this myself. I hold my sales money for however long to make sure I don't have a return or whatever.

And, anyone who says something about Chad's remark in that thread needs to read it closely because he doesn't really close any doors on this.

LVGJ said...

Coccyx said: "Amazon doesn't hold your money for a week before they allow your shipment to go out..."

Actually, they do.

I'm forced to use Amazon Payments on another venue, and they hold your money when you make a sale for 2 weeks.

Unless you can prove that you're "trustworthy" (but no one I know on that site has been able to - and they've been selling online for a while) they hostage your money to back up their guarantee.

really now said...

"My second reason for questioning is that I have to wonder if when this is rolled out, are they going to monopoly and force every purchase to use their checkout system rather than adding it as another option? If customers suddenly have to use their checkout rather than a checkout system they recognize, a lot of people aren't going to buy. Especially for those who are aware of Etsy's sinking reputation."

BINGO! (hehe)
Etsy can't even figure out how to allow multiple shipping options. What on earth makes anyone think they will allow *other* payment options?

DoWhatYouWantEtsyButLeaveMeOuttaIt said...

I hope they hire an actual support TEAM of people instead of one or two to get buried under a system that's inevitably going to need CONSTANT SUPPORT day in and day out for the first few years of it's existence.

I'm OK with them flirting with an in-house. Just, for fuck's sake, let me opt out and stay with paypal. Their a leading payment handling company for a reason, because more often than not, they get shit done.

Etsy cannot "get shit done" until it actually...starts doing shit.


Give us our goddamned seller tools (that every other website on the fucking PLANET has) before you screw with our money, Etsy. Just because they "want to create teams to help with priorities" doesn't mean they have a single one of them (priorities) in a straight line.

chickory said...

two words:

Big Cartel

watching from the sidelines said...

Well, if they do decide to implement their own payment system, they damn well better plan on also adding phone support.

Can you imagine if a buyer has put in their credit card information, something goes wrong, and the only option is to e-mail support at etsy??? Then, you don't get a response, ever?

That'll kill an e-commerce site really fast.

Coccyx said...

LVGJ said...
"I'm forced to use Amazon Payments on another venue, and they hold your money when you make a sale for 2 weeks."

Fair enough. I was speaking about when you order a CD or book from Amazon itself rather than their Paypal clone. Their own shopping cart system just processes your order and gets it out the door, they don't hold anything unless your payment simply doesn't go through. Same with Target or Walmart or Best Buy.

So I guess I don't understand why the buyer-to-seller payment systems all have a paranoid attitude about holding money and flagging transactions for investigation. It's essentially the same money that all the dot coms happily accept when it's going directly to them.

But the point is that if Etsy does this then they'd better do it like you're ordering directly from an ecommerce website or they're going to have tons of pissed off people who won't want to shop there. I'm sure nobody wants to wait and extra two weeks to get their knitted cowl.

chickory said...

today i posted on my blog that i am breaking up with Etsy. Im letting the shop die. in a way, i will miss it, in another way, i feel liberated. I wont be spending as much time trying to figure out how to be found, or how to take the photo that will get me on the front page or why is there so much manufactured goods on there masquerading as handmade?

an in-house payment system was truly the final straw.


thanks Etsy bitches for all these posts. i have learned so much here -mostly what i was seeing was true cause:

Etsy says : "are you going to believe your lying eyes or what we (and out cupcakes) tell you?"

i don't have to post under a anonymous name anymore (as before) because im no longer worried about Etsy retribution.

nina said...

FFS! Why would I want this? They screw up the implementation of too many things for me to be ok with this. If they don't offer PayPal as an alternative solution, I will probably just close up shop. I create things mostly for joy and a bit of profit. The idea of Etsy handling my money causes me great stress.

The Funny One said...

Lack of trust lies beneath every trial balloon that Etsy throws at sellers, but history proves that Etsy will do whatever they want to do, as long as it's their bottom line that profits.

Inventing the wheel is their specialty, which is why Etsy's architecture dictates that they create everything from scratch including a lousy search and swiss-cheese check-out process. (And they're too damn lazy to fix what's wrong unless it directly affects their monthly profits.)

You have to wonder why a site that takes in $26 million in a month doesn't have a powerful enough relationship to fully integrate PP and any other payment processor currently available on most ecommerce sites. A site with THAT MUCH MONEY should have reciprocal relationships so that these companies are more than happy to assign people who do nothing but solve Etsy's problems.

The fact that those kinds of "partnerships" seem to be completely absent after 5 years shows that Etsy thinks as little of potential partnerships as they do of their very own sellers. Shut up and go away.

It would be interesting to know what PP thinks of Etsy. (Not to mention Google.)

CupcakesMakeMeGag said...

I will never buy or sell another thing on Etsy if they force me to use their payment system.

NoTrust said...

Funny One, some of why Etsy doesn't have reciprocal relationships is, from what I've heard of them through the grapevine of businesses they work with, they complain and blame everyone else for their problems. Much like they do on the site itself.

Just hearsay I know, but...

RRobin said...

Isn't it early for April Fool's jokes? But this HAS to be one!

I would feel safer transacting business in cash via US Mail in envelopes marked "CASH ENCLOSED!!" than I would entrusting any of my financial data to Etsy.

jadedArtist said...

Is their payment system going to suck as badly as their attempt at recategorizing "Art"? Because, yes, holy shit, I read the rough draft. Apparently 160 etsy users were willfully ignorant enough to get the word "illustration" eliminated.

Why do they only survey the dumb ones?
You know, like if they survey about a payment system will they only ask 160 people, half of whom only have 8 sales? You know, while excluding sellers with 500 or even 1000 or 3000 or 10,000 sales? They did it with art, they'll probably do it with payment.

And it probably won't work.

And the people screwed out of sales will complain.

And the morons on the forums will defend the incompetent etsy staff.

Mute, mute, lock, lock.

And the front page is sucking again with the same favorites that I've seen there a million times already. Gag. So much for that 1 week of other stuff.

Etsy staff have no taste, no style, no zest. What a human mass of suck.

NPB said...

Anonymous nina said...

FFS! Why would I want this? They screw up the implementation of too many things for me to be ok with this. If they don't offer PayPal as an alternative solution, I will probably just close up shop. I create things mostly for joy and a bit of profit. The idea of Etsy handling my money causes me great stress."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
WHAT SHE SAID!

RRobin said...

Quoting The Funny One...

It would be interesting to know what PP thinks of Etsy. (Not to mention Google.)

**

I doubt they give it much thought either way; they just count their percentages.

Don't romanticize corporations as having hearts, souls, consciences, and/or personalities. All they have are bottom lines.

RR

Lost said...

No no no way will I ever link my bank account to an Etsy payment module. I'm looking further into setting up my own little website every day.

JohnCocktoasten said...

What CCMMG said.

FantasyClay said...

Not only don't I trust Etsy with money but if they insist on this as the only payment system, then they're shooting themselves in the foot. Not only will you have to register an account but everyone who sells/buys there would have to set up an new account to pay. 1000Markets proves that by only amazon payments. And that is a known payment. As a customer, would you sign up for another way to pay or just shop somewhere else?

sark said...

Okay, this is totally off-topic, but OMG! etsy bitches! The featured seller is women's underwear! Holy Moly!

I'm sure all the people who post in those "Why do you believe in god" threads must be thrilled.
You know, because some brain-dead assholes who only cater to wannabe hipster fucktards might not realize that I (as a non-christian, non-conservative, fucking outrageous liberal) am not thrilled about lacy underwear aimed at waif girls...

Oh, and slightly more on-topic — etsy fucked up their own help thing — oh, holy fuck!
You know, I used to just be able to click on a blue word and be taken to a quasi-relevant paragraph, now this peach page that leads to more useless peach question boxes? What is this clusterfuck and who thinks it's helpful?

If their payment system looks anything like their new "site help" clusterfuck — then fuck no! No IHPS!

chickory said...

they took out "illustration?" that wasnt the problem! the problem was searching for "original painting" and getting a purse with a piss poor painting of sponge bob on it.

i would never give etsy access to my bank accounts. how about when they wanted to have your paypal instead of the CC you paid the bill with? not on your life, Etsy.

Coccyx said...

I don't think it can be argued that customers would be turned off by an Etsy checkout because they already have to sign up for an Etsy account to purchase anyway.

I think the opposite, that they would know they're not going to have to go through an additional process with Paypal, which many people hate simply on principle, regardless of how easy it is.

I'm of course not speaking at all here for Etsy's actual implementation of the system, since that seems to be the main concern.

Julie said...

Uh...yeah. Why in the world would I trust a company who couldn't even get their automated payment system for etsy fees to work (and didn't even seem to realize it) with an in-house payment system?

foxaz said...

If this new Etsy payment system is put into place, I will buy and sell someplace else.

Someplace I trust to handle mu money.

FantasyClay said...

I can't wait to hear your take on the search, it seems to be screwing everything up. No wonder they didn't mention it before hand. 5 line titles seem to be the most "relevant" in every search

TooOld said...

This whole relevancy thing is just a distraction, IMHO. This is typical.
All they did was change the default to 'most relevant' and everybody freaked out and the reseller issue is buried.

Not everyone is that stupid, Etsy.

Jamy Hillis said...

I have never had a problem with in-house payments in general. But I wouldn't feel especially comfortable knowing that anyone at Etsy would have access to my bank account and routing number.

DieMonkeyDie said...

What I don't like..the idea that I would, most likely, not be able to access my money Exactly when I want to. That most likely I will get "paid" every two weeks or once a month, whilst they earn interest. Oh FUCK no.

WhatFor said...

I use paypal for a lot of other things besides Etsy, and don't like the idea of messing up my system with another payment system.
I am sure there are lots of potential customers who would feel the same way.
I trust paypal, believe it or not, because I have been using it to receive and send money for more than ten years without one glitch. Their % doesn't bother me because their service does the job.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, Kids at Etsy!

FantasyClay said...

What happened to the Rokali interview? It's been over two weekes since you said you had the interview and no hints, comments anything. You can post a little update or a partial interview

Wake Up said...

Etsy doesn't care about sellers. That's why I finally gave up and went to ArtFire. Business is picking up over there and I don't have to pay Etsy a commission.

Zelda said...

When they have a bad idea that the community unites against enough to make them drop it, they never really drop it. They just back away from it for a while until enough people forget or leave that they can pull it out again. This has happened several times (one example, the Gift Guide buttons being in your shop - first they were in the top menu, they took them away after much protestation. Then, surprise - they came back next year!).

Maria was saying they needed their own payment system to be able to do coupons, which doesn't make much sense.