Friday, January 23, 2009

Renewing isn't worth it anymore

Etsy has shot itself in the foot. According to HeyMichelle:

Because of the volume of new listings, we are uploading new listings in "batches". This means that there will be a delay for appearing on the Front Page and Time Machine 2. Additionally, items *may* not appear on the Front Page "Fresh Items" section.

This revelation about the fruitlessness of renewing for exposure comes amid a flurry of threads in site help asking about a lack of views, lack of exposure, time machine 2 looping, the appearance of new items far back on category pages immediately after listing, and the absence of their items on the front page. (See the sampling at bottom of entry).

Nice. Renewing is now gambling for exposure on the front page and categories.

One thing they've definitely accomplished is eliminating renewals as their bread and butter - a task they previously encouraged. Actually, this was the only good way to gain to exposure AND it was keeping Etsy afloat as a company.

Smart, Etsy.

Samples in the usual Etsy schema:
Renewals not working
Renewing sucks
Renewing is broken
Stop wasting your money

100 Comments:

Snarklet said...

Interesting. I've noticed that my views and sales, after a really great first two weeks of the month, have totally dropped off. Wonder if this is why, or part of why. Idiots.

blip said...

Renewing was always a big waste of money.

Heather said...

I was hoping you'd post something on this...how else are people supposed to find out? I stumbled upon a thread last night about it - otherwise I would have never known. It's not like admin is ever going to say anything.

People have to get their news in the forums, here, twitter...anywhere but etsy itself...Christ. And I'm not even touching the actual ISSUE. I'm surprised there wasn't another "huh huh huh you caught us again, we can't get anything by you guys, shucks..." post.

delightw said...

Well now doesn't this just explain so much!

ebbandflo said...

.. and now to get the message out to the renewing masses!

maybe this will shake some of the hardcore out of their complacency - will they now start waking up and asking questions?

Jimbob Quippy said...

Based on the stats as provided by etswy feeder, renewing is maybe about 1/5 of their income from listing fees, and a smaller total when taking everything else into account. It is hardly 'keeping Etsy afloat as a company'.

It's interesting that they admit you might not even appear on the front page or TM2... people have been noticing that for a long time, and etsy denied it. It seems like there's been too many listings for a long time for it to be possible iting appears.

Jimbob Quippy said...

Also, the batch loading thing is hardly new - I think 'Revolving Dicko' announced that last Summer.

upsetwithadmin said...

We told you so, Etsy, and not just recently.

You have a chit-load yet to learn and more than a chit load to own up to. Isn't it about time you finally spent the time listening to your sellers instead of playing with your toys?

Eveline said...

See, we always knew that the more people relist, the less people will be 'seen', but for Etsy to admit it.. and as usual.. not do a thing about it... well, that's just a bit... Etsy, isn't it? 'Etsy' is becoming another word for 'sad' in my book.

Anonymous said...

Been reading your blogs for a while now, but this is one time that I am truly upset with etsy because it has finally directly affected me, and thus I had to comment. DISMAL views doesn't even begin to describe it. My last 7 items didn't not show on FP or in time machine. I'm really mad. Thanks for covering this.

kibbles said...

HAHA! This is so funny! I've been saying that renewing is futile all along, only to be argued with. I NEVER renew because it just pads Etsy's pockets. The truth is finally out. I wonder if their forum users will believe it now? Etsy must now devise a new plan to take more money.

Valenzo said...

Crap. Now, how am I going to take up the entire first page 9 times / day?

disappointed said...

1/5 is a significant part of a company's income. Especially when they aren't really making a profit.

Once again, Etsy gets a big, fat F for communication. Why is communication such a difficult thing for that company?

Jimbob Quimby said...

Disappointed, I said 1/5 of their income 'from listing fees'. Etsy also receives commission fees, showcase sales, and probably some other misc. income.

Anyway, what are the chances that a significant people are going to stop renewing due to a couple forum comments and an Etsy Bitch article?

Anonymous said...

wait wait wait, I was supposed to be renewing to be on the front page and in time machine 2?

Here I was just renewing the day before the item expired..because isn't that what renewing is for?

Brass Monkey Designs said...

LMAO And I know exactly which thread I'm going to post this bit of news on too. LOL There were people defending relisting on that thread. I can't wait to burst their bubble.

Adore said...

This makes me so incredibly sad. I am of course not surprised by this in any way and quite angry with Admin that they are just now admitting there is a problem.

I feel sad though because many people believe and will Still believe that renewing is a viable option.

Brass Monkey Designs said...

Oh yeah...one more thing...and anyone who has already jumped off that relisting bandwagon, before heymichelle popped their bubble, please feel free to convo me at Etsy and give me your shop name. I'm going to post a list of people who aren't doing the relisting thing anymore, on my blog. I figure my little blog will get you at least a few more views than relisting ten times a day would have.

http://www.brassmonkeydesigns.etsy.com

Rana said...

Interesting. I never figured out the rationale behind renewing as a marketing strategy - it always seemed more sensible to put my money into a directed, focused ad where I could control the venue and the content - but a lot of people certainly seemed to spend a lot of time and money obsessing about it. Good to know my instincts were correct!

peaseblossomstudio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
foxaz said...

So now we know- renewing is futile.

In order to get on the front page, we need to get organized. Groups of 12 or more need to do treasuries that all feature each other. There are a few "clans" that are doing that now. Each person can have a Treasury and a Treasury West.

It would require some thought and time, and an affinity for gray- but hey- A bit of concerted effort and we can DOMINATE!!

eclipse said...

peaseblossomstudio said..
I am going to run the numbers for items listed vs. items sold for a month, since they always provide us with stats of those and I wonder if the income from listing isn't more than the income from items sold?

....
They only give us the numbers for new listings and sales, they do not give us numbers for renewals.

for december they had $12.9  million in sales, so their cut was $451,500.00
also in december they had 1,098,644 new listings, their income was $219,728.00
however, december figures are not average and that was the first month in Etsy history that the number of new listings dropped instead of increasing, so November or October might be better months to look at
November had more listings but fewer sales, so Etsy's income from listing fees would be a larger % of income

showcases IF they are all full would provide about $265,680.00 a month, however many of the category showcases are never full, so the actual income per month is significantly less than this figure.

main showcase 36 slots x $15 a day x 30 days= $16,200.00
Gift Guides Showcase 36 slots x $7 x 30 days= $7560.00
Storque Main Showcase 36 slots x $7 x 30 days=$7560.00
31 category showcases x 36 slots x $7 x 30 days=$234,360.00

so sales=$451,500.00 in revenue (in xmas shopping season, usually it is less)
new listings=$219,728.00 in revenue (usually it is more)
showcases IF all full = $265,680.00 in revenue (usually it is less)
renewals= UNKNOWN
adding the 3 income sources we know about, the monthly total revenue is $936,408.00
which means NEW listings are 23% of that revenue.
This does not even include renewals.

Once you adjust the showcase and sales figure downward, and add in renewals, I would bet that new listings PLUS renewals= at least 40% of total revenue, if not more.

So YES this is what I would call a significant percentage of their revenue!

forum rubbernecker said...

In order to get on the front page, we need to get organized. Groups of 12 or more need to do treasuries that all feature each other. There are a few "clans" that are doing that now. Each person can have a Treasury and a Treasury West.
____________
DING DING DING We have a winner! I am beginning to think that is the only way to get any exposure around Etsy.

I can name the clans and their members.
Someone left a snarky comment in a clan treasury the other day (the true clan, they really are a family) commenting on how many family members were in there, and their comment got deleted and then they posted again about "what are you hiding".

The other clan that is is interesting is that there is a photographer who shoots for 6 different shops (3 are hers) and multiple photos of hers are on the FP every day. Someone at Etsy really has a thing for her emo-girl models.

The worst thing about all of this clan crap is that treasuries are for promoting your fellow artists, NOT this incestuous thing where they put each other in every damn treasury.

bloopy said...

I never understood the whole relisting and cut-throat attitude about getting on the front page, but I think it's partly because the search blows and it's the only way sellers can be found. It's really sad, everyone scrambling all the time to stay afloat.

PaperStreet said...

Jimbob Quippy said...

Based on the stats as provided by etsy feeder, renewing is maybe about 1/5 of their income from listing fees, and a smaller total when taking everything else into account. It is hardly 'keeping Etsy afloat as a company'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This may be the case but the loss of 1/5 of your income is substantial, I don't care how big you are. Try explaining the loss to the investors who lend you 27 million dollars in series D financing. Series D financing is money from investors to make your business grow after proving that it has made a profit or at least broke even over a certain length of time ( usually 3-4 years). And investors want returns plain and simple.

That along with the newbies who've signed up in the last~ *geeze* 6 months~ and haven't made more than a couple of sales after being advised again and again to renew and relist often to be seen on the front page how much longer do you think they will stick around in light of this? (good reason to keep the threads at the top!!)
Also if renewing fees is 1/5 of the listing fees and listing new or relisting plus the final sale fees is the other 4/5's, guess what people are not going to be doing much of those two things either if they aren't selling because they aren't seen.
I personally have had loads of sales from renewing or relisting,
I refuse to renew anymore because it is a waste of money.
Apparently Etsy has a plan in the works to amp up their income via higher fees the investors will not let them NOT make money! they'll be breathing down their necks if there is any loss at all.

Handmade FuZion said...

As one who used to renew 5-7 items a day when selling on etsy I understand this is disappointing. That is one reason why we chose to have a juried site. There is an upside and downside to that... but atleast those who DO get approved have plenty exposure and a fair shot at making a profit.

PaperStreet said...

BTW Peaseblossom we did the math in two other threads it's aprox. 2.5% of listings that won't possibly fit through the scroller per day based on December stats, just as a reference point. (That's not a lot)
I would imagine there was a lot more renewing and listing in December than Jan. considering people needed to sell their seasonal items and needed Christmas money to spend, and were extremely disappointed by the "Black Friday" "Cyber Monday" Hooplah, and economic downturns blablabla.
Damn that renewing thing is a crapshoot and it can be as addictive as gambling IMO, pay off is not guaranteed at all but you keep rolling the dice anyway!

BTW about 90% of my listings are being excluded from the front page scroller. I relist a lot because I sell a lot.

PB::JJ::WW said...

I wonder if Etsy will refund all those re-listing fees? It is obvious how usurious these fees are now that HeyMichelle has finally admitted the "jig is up." The Admin were constantly pushing new shop owners to re-list and telling us to do it. Always claiming that it would make you more visible, thereby getting more views, which in turn lead to more sales. "And for only 20 cents it is a viable option. All the top sellers re-list everyday..."

I will pay for my legitimate listing/promotion fees. However, I refuse to pay for my re-listing fees. This admission from HeyMichelle proves to me all the push to re-list is a huge scam on Etsy's part, no way around it.

-PaintedBull

etsy is just too big now said...

Forax, sign me up for the treasury group. That is once of the few ways to be been seen on etsy other than the storque.

Bonnie (aka Hello Crafty) said...

closed my shop yesterday. etsy isn't getting another nickel or dime from me.

peaseblossomstudio said...

I ran the numbers too and yup, the listing and relisting fees must be a big chunk of income.

LOL foxaz, I want to get in on it, but I might be told I am hanging in bad company again. The person who told me that said they are too busy to look at the front page yet I saw that they took the time to make a treasury the day they said that and apparently made some kind of back room deal and is now BFFs with The Queen of The Front Page.

PaperStreet said...

this lovely bit of info has made it's way back to the top of the forums again today, it was bumped up yesterday too.

The Ultimate Newbie Guide - 1 year anniversary edition

http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=5581122

Brass Monkey Designs said...

Regarding treasuries...the last few times I've gotten one, I made it a point to use the oldest listings I could find that would go with the theme I had.

I'll never make the front page though...I am sick of seeing all that damned gray/slate/ash/charcoal and I refuse to contribute any further drabness when there is so much beautiful color in the world. LOL

Bookman said...

Criminy you people never miss an angle - First Etsy is evil for encouraging renewals then it's stupid for getting rid of the need.

Etsy announced its intentions to do away with the renewal incentive shortly after Maria took over, so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has been paying attention. The upside is that the incentive is now for Etsy to replace that revenue by increasing sales. They make more money when a $15 sells than when it is listed.

sillygirl said...

The only way to really get to Etsy is by going to the groups and magazines that support them.

Did anyone see SNAG there this week with it's pathetic article about galleries. Also the ACC. What about the magazines that kiss Etsy's ass. Craft, ReadyMade, Venus, Bust.

If an organized group of artists when to any or all of them and said we will not buy your magazine or do your shows or give you my membership fee until you stop being associated with Etsy, NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE!

Now Etsy is trying to appeal to Fine Artists? Getting old school crafters to jump on the band wagon. Etsy is the reason galleries are failing, wholesale shows are empty.

It is going to take a lot more than no longer renewing to stop the downward spiral that Etsy has done to the Craft World.

creativeneurosis said...

another week, another etsy fuck-up.

i wonder how long they can keep screwing the pooch before the whole thing implodes...

TalismanStudios said...

First, I want to say that I DO appreciate this blog. Sometimes the truth hurts, but I haven't seen any posts on here yet that are not truth.

To Etsy's credit - it appears they may be reacting to the problem your post refers to, by changing the way they are picking for the FPage.

So far, people have noticed a new "chosen by search"(mentioning the keyword used in search), and also by "Recently on Timeline2" which is self-explanatory.

Anyway - thanks for the entertaining and informative reads; some of you all are wonderfully creative with words!

embellisher said...

Well, fear not, they have devised ANOTHER way to get you to renew/relist in a frenzy. The front page has been featuring treasuries that are made up of recently listed TM2 items. So how many people are going to keep on doing it because 1) blissfully unaware of the problem or 2) they figure this is still a better chance of being on the front page?

Etsy, you ain't even slick. Machinations within machinations, more ways to get the $$ out of sellers. No wonder nothing else can get done.

I'm insulted. You actually think no-one's hip to this. Connect the dots, people, connect the dots

TerrieTalisman said...

First, I want to say that I DO appreciate this blog. Sometimes the truth hurts, but I haven't seen any posts on here yet that are not truth.

To Etsy's credit - it appears they may be reacting to the problem your post refers to, by changing the way they are picking for the FPage.

So far, people have noticed a new "chosen by search"(mentioning the keyword used in search), and also by "Recently on Timeline2" which is self-explanatory.

Anyway - thanks for the entertaining and informative reads; some of you all are wonderfully creative with words!

Brass Monkey Designs said...

You know...the more I think about this, the more upset it makes me. Most of the issues that bothered me, I was willing to accept as neglect due to them getting in way over their head and Etsy getting to huge too fast.

Encouraging sellers to relist daily, when they knew full well that it didn't make much difference is a choice made...a dishonest choice...unethical...plain and simple.

I think that if ever Etsy owed a very huge, sincere, and complete apology to its sellers for one thing, this would be it.

The Funny One said...

We can throw numbers around until the cows come home, but one thing is clear. Etsy is a tiny clique running a clique-y company based on a big idea reduced to a list of "personal likes" because Etsy can't see beyond their own noses. This isn't the first time Etsy shot itself in the foot.

Relisting was a joke the minute it became "the thing to do" just like every other "trend" on Etsy, including the incestuous FPT's. That's the way Etsy runs itself, so the sellers who have the time to join the inner sanctum and act like a member of the Etsy clan mimick the same behavior. And it all ends up being about Etsy, and what Etsy likes to promote at the Etsy price 24/7.

Whether you pay them 20 cents per listing or per relisting, unless you are an Etsy-approved seller selling Etsy-approved products, you actually get less than nothing for your monthly fees (and wasted hours of effort).

No access to promotions (and if you are still throwing money at the showcase sham, take a closer look at the all-Etsy-picked front page), no real improvement in store support services, a faulty shopping cart-----but you get to look at all-Etsy-approved picks all over the site because Etsy is about the stores that produce the products they approve, and not much else.

Etsy isn't promoting V-Day, or helping stores sell during bad times with coupon codes or new promotions. Etsy has mastered the forumula for promoting their approved sellers and approved products at approved (bargain basement) prices AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHER STORES ON THE SITE.

Chiara said...

I don't actually care about this. Maybe I should be snarky. :P but it was sort of annoying that people could afford to constantly bump stuff up and I never could (poor student here). I only renew when things expire.

donejustdone said...

The funny one said..
Etsy isn't promoting V-Day, or helping stores sell during bad times with coupon codes or new promotions. Etsy has mastered the forumula for promoting their approved sellers and approved products at approved (bargain basement) prices AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHER STORES ON THE SITE.

+++++++++++++++++++++
I couldn't agree more. This is disgusting. Last week, one jewelry seller was on the FP every day, and then one day that seller was on 4x in a row.

The clans, the cliques, the favortism. Etsy favorites are the only ones getting support from Etsy. And those same sellers are featured in the dorque, the gift guides and the FP.

renewing used to work really well, and now it doesn't. It just makes me so sick.

I'm letting my listings expire. No more renewing for me. Once my listings expire, I'm outta here.

Thanks, EtsyBitch for bringing this out into the open. Especially since we never have communication from Etsy. They wouldn't want us to know about this. They'd rather just swindle us out of money for false hopes and dreams.

Seriously said...

Hmmm. I'm interested to know who the Queen of the Front Page actually is. Because since my gargantuan renewal and new listing bill has left me broke with 117 items in my shop, I may have to stoop to bribery, or something like that.

Blissfully ignorant said...

I've come to the conclusion that etsy is not worth my time or effort.

The Legendary Tiger Hero said...

Damn right!

Anonymous said...

ya know if they got rid of that bogus front page matchy matchy treasury crap they would have more room to show newly relisted items. Just a thought.

front page fatigue said...

ya know if they got rid of that matchy match front page treasury crap they would have room for newly listed items and people could get some exposure instead of the same tired stuff being shown

personofinterest said...

Hey seriously, how do I know who the "select few" in the "incestuos" FPT's are? I kinda pay attention but haven't figured out who is realted to people etc or who just works hard to get noticed legitimatly. I wanna know who the Queen is too! anyone know where they "name names"? ;)

buddy said...

What's the point of a FP of "Recently in TM2"??

The complaint is from all the people whose items DIDN'T GET INTO TM2.

Why bump the TM2 randomly onto the FP when the problem is with the items that got batch SKIPPED from appearing on TM2?

I really don't understand the thought process over at Etsy.

The Funny One said...

If sellers had access to a complete list of traffic stats to Etsy during 2008, it would be clear that Etsy-promoted-products are the winners because they are getting the most exposure and for long periods of time. For free. Or, one could argue, at the expense of the cost of listing and relisting fees for stores that are never featured in any of the Etsy-controlled promotion tools.

And I don't think Etsy arrived at this by any other way than by accident. They fell into a formula that works for them (since they control all information about their site) and doesn't create too much work for them. This is why Etsy has been able to completely ignore the fact that the number of stores outpaced the site structure and methodology 2 years ago. But Etsy didn't change a damn thing, they just got better at working their formula.

Without adequate information, sellers have to make up their own minds. If you are not a favorite on Etsy, it's just too hard to justify spending the money, time, effort, and countless hours to maintain a store on a site that funnels most of that money into promoting (for free) a small list of stores and products that fit their narrow, predictable, and pedestrian definition of "trendy enough for Etsy".

It isn't only the sellers who are turned off by the Etsy Formula. The thing about trends is that they get old, fast. Don't believe the numbers about huge increases in sales that Etsy spews out in its glossy and deceptive press releases. We don't know the real story because we don't have access to the real numbers.

pokerchip said...

I never understood the renewal thing and I think I may have done it once or twice in 2 years.

newornothing said...

when is timothyadams going to stop promoting renewing??
http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6000145

forum rubbernecker said...

If sellers had access to a complete list of traffic stats to Etsy during 2008, it would be clear that Etsy-promoted-products are the winners because they are getting the most exposure and for long periods of time. For free. Or, one could argue, at the expense of the cost of listing and relisting fees for stores that are never featured in any of the Etsy-controlled promotion tools.
___________
Hell yeah. I have been tracking someone whose sales are DIRECTLY tied to her frequent FP appearances. Oversaturation will get you sales, even if you need undisclosed accounts and sock puppets to get yourself out there.
That is the biggest eff up of all in this. Etsy pays NO attention to WHO they are promoting. Selfish b or no, they promote whom they choose.

messfest said...

I would like to apologize for some spiteful comments I made a while back in fits of jealousy about certain sellers...you know they ones, who are on the FP what seems like all day, every day, who've been crowned by the EtsyGods and receive priceless promotion and exposure.

I've had disagreements with sellers who raise some good points in the forums but who do squat to actually get something going to turn this tide around with low views and other issues.

HeyMichelle laid it out for us in black and white. There's got to be a better way. Lot of good suggestions, breakdowns and ideas in this thread from the usual suspects. Thank God for EB.

HeeHaw said...

The sheer amount of work etsy Admin suggests you do to be successful on the site is pretty darned depressing to me. I wish they would be there, working for us for me instead of us being there working for them.

Case in point, I log into my AF account and boom, right there, in plain sight , are updates from AF admin. No need to go through the forums or the Storque with a fine tooth comb to stay abreast of changes that affect me as a seller. Another time and sanity saver that makes me feel like I Am A Valued Customer there.
Once AF get the FP look cleaned up and worked out, get the beta stuff tweaked and get users taking better photos (and this is a big one, a link to a photo tutorial wouldn't go wrong.I think gemmafactrix did one for etsy a few years back if memory serves,maybe they could link to that. ;p )then they'll be able to give etsy a really good run for their money.

Top Shelf Totes said...

I never thought renewing was worth it, especially in my category where people were batch listing already. I'd renew and be on page 10 or even 20 within minutes.

Will be interesting to see what happens now. I've noticed that people who are big sellers, who renewed often, are now questioning Etsy in the forums. Guess they are finally seeing what the rest of us have seen for awhile. Better late than never.

watchingfoodnetworktv said...

forum rubbernecker said...
If sellers had access to a complete list of traffic stats to Etsy during 2008, it would be clear that Etsy-promoted-products are the winners because they are getting the most exposure and for long periods of time. For free. Or, one could argue, at the expense of the cost of listing and relisting fees for stores that are never featured in any of the Etsy-controlled promotion tools.
___________
Hell yeah. I have been tracking someone whose sales are DIRECTLY tied to her frequent FP appearances. Oversaturation will get you sales, even if you need undisclosed accounts and sock puppets to get yourself out there.
That is the biggest eff up of all in this. Etsy pays NO attention to WHO they are promoting. Selfish b or no, they promote whom they choose.
------------------------------

WOW - that's really kind of psychotic. You're tracking another shop's sales and making note of when they appear on the FP, when they sell things, etc.? How bizarre. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? What on earth could that possibly accomplish? Are you one day going to post her name for evidence or something? If you have an etsy shop why not spend more time on it - hey if you need to play the game (previously that was renewing, now I don't know what it will be) to make sales, then play the game or quit complaining.

below 14th said...

This is unbelievable to me. I usually saw more sales when I relisted more. I won't be doing it again. Why would you ever renew unless you got something in return?? This makes NO FUCKING SENSE. Etsy administration is completely useless. I hope my other shops take off so I can quit that bitch.

Ninja Jenn said...

ok wait... as a newb to etsy's silliness... and not sure i am reading this right... does this mean that even totally new listings may not show up either?

cause that sure is what *i* got from reading the quoted part

:-/

The Funny One said...

watchingfoodnetwork may have missed the point entirely, as do those who argue that this is just a lot of whiney sellers slinging mud at Etsy's repetitive picks. Any store that gets that much exposure will likely sell more products (which any of us can verify in about 5 minutes by looking at the 5 most-often plugged) but only if they are products that Etsy likes to promote. That just means that one quarter million stores are all paying monthly fees, but only a tiny fraction have access to all the free promotions on the site.

Instead of increasing the number and type of promotions that sellers might use to help them sell commensurate with the huge increase in stores, Etsy has created a group of "tools" that are 100% controlled by Etsy.
If you don't sell what Etsy likes to pick, you're on your own, only now you have 249,999 other stores to compete with for eyeballs and dollars.

Sellers who aren't Etsy favorites (which is most of the sellers on Etsy) just end up being left out of any opportunity to promote their products because THERE ARE NO PROMOTIONS for sellers to use.

Using relisting as a way to promote is one hell of a lousy "alternative" to a decent set of promotion tools that aren't based entirely on the personal tastes of a few Etsy employees who keep forcing their own picks for what's Etsy-approved-trendy------that's effective marketing for a handmade site with 250,000 stores?????

No, that's marketing a few Etsy products for a few stores all the time. And the result is a site full of Etsy products for the Etsy price with more new stores making Etsy products for the Etsy price and they kinda all look like those weird Etsy trends that Etsy likes to promote with its repetitive picks of Etsy-like products (preferrably $15 and under).

Jimbob Quimby said...

Whatever happened to Neck Warmers??

forum rubbernecker said...

WOW - that's really kind of psychotic. You're tracking another shop's sales and making note of when they appear on the FP, when they sell things, etc.? How bizarre. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? What on earth could that possibly accomplish? Are you one day going to post her name for evidence or something? If you have an etsy shop why not spend more time on it - hey if you need to play the game (previously that was renewing, now I don't know what it will be) to make sales, then play the game or quit complaining.
__________
You missed the point entirely. It is a case study, nothing more. What can it accomplish? Data that is needed for something but nothing I can discuss. Bizarre to you maybe, but you are either new, or have your head in an orifice of your person.
Whether or not I spend time on my shop or even have one is immaterial to the argument.

Shewhowishestoremainanonoymous said...

For what it's worth, about the time Maria came on board, I ran into an old friend who had recently taken a job at etsy. She had just started and was in the honeymoon phase of the job. She let it slip that they had recently had a staff meeting where it was announced that "most" of their income was coming from renewals and that they were all really surprised by the info.

eclipse said...

Shewhowishestoremainanonoymous said...

For what it's worth, about the time Maria came on board, I ran into an old friend who had recently taken a job at etsy. She had just started and was in the honeymoon phase of the job. She let it slip that they had recently had a staff meeting where it was announced that "most" of their income was coming from renewals and that they were all really surprised by the info.
------------------------
Hah! I knew it. If new listings are almost 25%, you just KNOW that renewals have to be double or triple that amount. This is WHY they have never fixed search, or done anything about mistagging. Renewals was the only way to get noticed and that's how they liked it.

I expect any of the female staff hired around the time Maria started are going to be in trouble now for loose lips.

The Dangerous Mezzo said...

For those of you who miss neckwarmers, there are THREE listings with them on the FP right now, along with an adorable fake moustache on a stick. Unbelievably, this melange was composed by searching for the term "men" :)

below14th said...

"And the result is a site full of Etsy products for the Etsy price with more new stores making Etsy products for the Etsy price and they kinda all look like those weird Etsy trends that Etsy likes to promote with its repetitive picks of Etsy-like products (preferrably $15 and under)."

Exactly. Etsy is basically a juried site at this point, except they "jury" in their marketing and promotion, but allow everyone to sign up and pay fees.

Sneaky sneaky.

However. Do they really think people are THAT stupid to keep paying for a service that doesn't exist?!

cynicallyopenminded said...

I am so sick of Etsy. I am in the process of moving my items to 1000Markets and Artfire. I am not going to completely quit the Etsy camp, but I am significantly limiting my stock there over the next several months.

It was implied by Etsy: if you renew, you stay at the top of the category lists, more people see you pieces, more sales.

Problem: I sell jewelry an already saturated category. My items would barely make the first page in the category. So I relied on my 15 seconds. Now I don't get that and my stuff gets buried so quickly I might as well dig my own hole.

I'm done renewing. Once I list that is it. My stuff will expire and that's it.

PB::JJ::WW said...

The Dangerous Mezzo said...: For those of you who miss neckwarmers, there are THREE listings with them on the FP right now, along with an adorable fake moustache on a stick. Unbelievably, this melange was composed by searching for the term "men"

-----------------------------
Wow, That is so blatant and absurd. Etsy Admin know exactly what they are doing. No mistake about that...:(
-JJ & PaintedBull

Not that Madonna said...

I'm so glad I found this blog! I opened by Etsy shop in October and it's been alot of work for very little exposure.

LOL at what PBJJWW and Dangerous Mezzo said about FP treasuries based on keywords. How many sellers do you think frantically changed/added tags, inappropriate tags, to their items in a desperate attempt to be "found".

Searching on Etsy is so mucked up. and relisting was the only way to be seen. Now if we boycott relisting, do you think Admin will fix the search function?

The Funny One said...

If you are watching the FP on a daily basis, you will also see that Etsy is now replacing the FPT's with their own picks several times a day, so (as faulty as the FTP system is) even that ONE tool still in the hands of sellers has been co-opted by Etsy.

Etsy now picks:
all the promo sections on the front page including Guides, FS, new promo boxes on top of page (which are often repeats of other Etsy promo sections), the Finds emails and new gg emails, the hundreds of weekly blog posts------and now Etsy has taken over the FPT's to put in more of their picks (or repeats).

Since Etsy changed the batch loading so that your (re)listings may NEVER APPEAR in TM2 and the bottom of the page scroll, Etsy now controls 100% of what gets seen and when.

And more important, what products get seen when and how often and are repeated across several sections all at the same time. Visitors who think they're seeing triple, are really seeing triple. Hour after hour, day after day, week after week, and month after month.

NewDaySameFrontPage said...

well, isn't this new "random" search for the FP fun?
they managed to find recently listed stuff but they had to go back 4 days for just 1 item. isn't that special? and so lucky for the seller of that item....

Start To Finish Supplies said...

I am outraged by this whole deal. One thing Etsy does maintain is the ability to amaze and disappoint me. Not showing up on the front page when you renew is a total crock. Etsy is taking advantage of their sellers, once again.

Admittedly Pedantic said...

*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*


Can people PLEASE stop using the terms "renew" and "relist" interchangeably?

They are NOT the same thing.

When an item that you have sells and you have another available for sale, you RELIST.

When an item is about to expire or you have some crazed notion that you'll get more exposure by paying another .20 for no extension on the expiration date, you RENEW.

Andy Mathis said...

I don't see why it matters which term one uses.

all costs 20 cents and your item goes back to top of the category. Who knows if it's seen or not.

list/renew/relist- all same to me.

Rana said...

Does anyone want to go and gently cluestick some newbies?

This thread exulting over the power of premature renewing (sorry, Pedantic! if I screwed up earlier) just went up today.

SIGH.

http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6016949

below 14th said...

NewDaySameFrontPage and The Funny One,

I noticed that too and can confirm that the FP is bull because this morning I woke up to find one of my items on the FP, in a staff-picked treasury of "recently listed items." Thing is, that item hadn't been listed in a month.

I'm really not sure what prompted the love. I'm not an FP regular.

Jimbob Sniddly said...

Fake moustache on a stick... how clever and novel! Just want a man wants.

SO, for ONE MORE TIME: We don't need to rely on hearsay or theoretical speculation about income from relistings. * ETSY HAD THEIR DATA AVAILABLE ON THE WEB * and it was republished. Anyone can go read it.

an average day might be

new listings:4500
renewed listings: 2300
commissions: 4800
fees_showcase :1250
total today:13000

New Listings and Commissions combined are (or were) almost always FOUR TO FIVE TIMES relisting fees.

finally fed the frak up said...

Matt's post just pissed me straight the fuck off.

http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6017266

Done out of love? What a condescending fuck.

I'm done. Everything is moving to Art Fire tomorrow morning.

Admittedly Pedantic said...

Andy, it matters which term is used because relisting and renewing are NOT the same.

One cannot "relist" what one has not sold.

And using the wrong term is extremely confusing to people.

It's like using the words "pie" and "cake" interchangeably. They're both desserts. They're both nummy. You can use strawberries in both. But they are NOT the same. If someone used those terms in that way, someone just learning English would be confused as all get out.

Someone just learning Etsyspeak, and even the veterans, get all confoozled when these words are used wrong.



And I'm off to have some strawberries *grin*

purple_sage said...

My only exposure on Etsy came from TM1 and TM2.
I still sell, but I have branched to other venues and see some success there.
The structure of the new BIG Etsy does not work anymore unless you are among the chosen few who receive FP visibility.
I guess it was nice while it lasted.

Eveline said...

And... it's closed. Matt now tells us that our $0.20 per listing never included a guarantee to find your item in the Recently Listed items on the homepage or the Timemachines. Riiight. So what about the YEARS of pushing us to relist and renew as part of our marketing strategy?

http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6017266

KPP said...

Etsy is now stating that the listing fee does not guarantee you anything but a listing in your shop for a set amount of time. Okay, this might be "offical" but its backpeddling to me, disingenuous at best. Etsy has been peddling relisting as a good marketing technique implicitly and I would argue, explicitly. They have a scroll on the front page and multiple shopping tools that list items. Not a subset of items. Newly listed items. The only caveat is that your stuff may not show up immediately. To me, this implies, your stuff is going to show up. It did before. Nothing about this text implies that you're getting anything but everything.

How many Quit Your Day Job or other Big Sellers have written articles touting relisting as a good idea? A lot. I don't read all of them, but they include it. These are official etsy article, not to mention all the blogs, etc. -->Okay, scratch that last statement, I read the last couple QYDJ articles looking for proof and they don't mention renewing or relisting, but here's an article about On-Etsy marketing that's still out there: http://www.etsy.com/storque/how-to/i-heart-marketing-my-etsy-shop-and-you-will-too-part-2-18/ Its dated 10-2007. Not big proof though.

I understand that there may be technical glitches with the TM and front page (timing vs mass numbers), but apologize for that and your inability to scale, refund some listing fees and stop hiding behind "technically it only counts for your listing." If that's the case, you should have labeled everything "A selection of newly listed items."

Little Lovables said...

I have stopped renewing for the most part, and instead am trying to focus on only listing new items and promoting elsewhere.

Little Lovables said...

My favorite part you didn't include in the comment is the "hope this helps!" standard response admins gave....

sillygirl said...

The words "CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT" just came up in the forums.
Count me in!
Who has a lawyer in the family?

The Funny One said...

Yeah, I agree with most of the comments here about the Etsyspeak gobbledegook and the mix up with what relisting means (and who really knows when Etsy does their own thing all the time). At least I learn a lot more from EB comments than 10 weeks of forum agony.

You do know that Matt is just sucking up more seller attention while Etsy takes control of the entire site.....right?

They have done all their little tweaks since January 1, pulling the rug out from everyone and anyone.

So, we'll migrate off Etsy as the new sites get better, and some are really better depending on what you sell. Most of us will find great venues and take our loyal customers with us.

The secret is out, Etsy (although your continued disdain for most sellers is not). Pushing them right out the door might actually start hitting your bottom line. Sooner is better than later.

so done with etsy by now said...

Isn't the colloquial definition of insanity to continue to do the same thing and each time expect a different outcome? I don't understand why people continue to think that as long as they shake their fists at Etsy that anything is going to significantly improve.

Etsybitch is a great forum for expressing honest frustration about a potentially wonderful site that has spiraled out of control and sprayed shit over thousands of people in the process. But at some point it becomes necessary to recognize that Etsy isn't going to change for the better, no matter how much potential you think it might have.

Use Etsy's business model as a learning experience for how not to run a business and how not to treat your customers, and that will be it's real value to you in the end.

Baffled said...

Chiara said...
I don't actually care about this. Maybe I should be snarky. :P but it was sort of annoying that people could afford to constantly bump stuff up and I never could (poor student here). I only renew when things expire.
.................................

Comments like this and the one bashing Tim Adam blow my mind. I find that anytime I come here and actually read this crap...the sellers who are bitching are the ones with very little sales. Why don't you all quit blaming Etsy for your lack of success and take some responsibility? There are MANY people on Etsy doing just fine despite all of the "horrible things" Etsy does. I think it's bullshit. Plain bullshit. If you suck and your sales have dropped...that's your own damn fault.

NewDaySameFrontPage said...

I woke up to find one of my items on the FP, in a staff-picked treasury of "recently listed items." Thing is, that item hadn't been listed in a month.
_________
I find it amusing that they think they have put one over on us. They keep coming up with more and more ways to push the approved faves out in front (not referring to you 14th), not realizing that no matter how it is done, it is still obvious.
I am sorry Matt had to close that thread. It is sad that some people have no self control and have to butt into everything and make it about themselves and bring up issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. Sure, someone cracked, but can you blame them? That much cat piss is eventually going to make even the most mild mannered soul just blow.

Jimbob Quippy said...

That BS from Matt is terrible... again, right in line with what Revolving Dreck told everyone last year at various times.

That's public relations? Maybe he should get a book about it...

They haven't tried at all to give more exposure to sellers, other than really skewed, selective efforts that benefit .0001% of sellers. Sellers have steadily been getting less and less for their money - like when companies start putting 13 ounces of chips in the bad instead of 16 for the same price.

eclipse said...

Jimbob Sniddly said...
* ETSY HAD THEIR DATA AVAILABLE ON THE WEB * and it was republished. Anyone can go read it.
----------------
can you link to where you got those figures?
I know they give the numbers for new listings in the Storque but I have never seen them publish renewal numbers.
and your numbers do not match up with what is published in the Storque.

destsill said...

while i completely agree with the complaints, once you've done venting its time to hunker down, focus on what you do best and start to reduce your expectations of what is going to be possible for you on any online site this -09- season if you are in the US. If you are elsewhere it is only a matter of time before your economy is as deeply troubled as it is in cowtown USA.
honestly, moving to artfire in a huff is going to do you little good. few people are selling on there like is possible for you on etsy.
the name of the game in business is getting people to see your items. to be a smart business person sometimes you have to overlook the crap.
yes etsy needs to get their act together but seriosuly moving to artfire only hurts you in the long run. keep both shops open is all i'm sayin

cynicallyopenminded said...

I'm irritated that the staff has even more of their picks again: as if the GG, the GG FP, Storque, Featured Sellers weren't enough. I like seeing what other sellers pick (besides the FP regulars).

Rana said...

The decision to leave Etsy, whether or not one moves to Artfire, is obviously one that people need to make for themselves. But I do get tired of the idea that closing shop on Etsy is somehow equivalent to stomping off in a huff because one's sales are low.

It's because my sales are low (unsurprising, given that I've had an online shop for less than four months) that I CAN leave Etsy. If I were a more established seller, it would a much more consequential and serious decision. That such established sellers are considering it says volumes about the problems at Etsy.

I do get more hits at Etsy than at ArtFire or Zenfolio, but a lot of those hits are from traffic I drove there myself (my own blog gets three times the hits my Etsy shop gets, and that's in a quiet period when I'm not posting regularly), and now that I'm planning an advertising campaign, it makes little sense to send traffic (and money) to a site with such obvious problems with communication and honesty.

I considered my time at Etsy as a trial period, to see how the site works, to see what the support and interface are like, and so on. What I've found is that the site is substantially buggy, the interface cumbersome, the pricing structure not ideal, and the administrative staff highly unprofessional - in some cases to the point of verging on the unethical.

Simply put, that is not how I do business, and Etsy is not the sort of company with whom I would want as a business partner. I'm not looking for a friend, or a buddy, or someone who will tell me that they "love" me. I want a secure, efficient online platform, with reliable functionality, and an administrative team that communicates well and responds promptly.

The IDEA of Etsy is great, as are many of the people who buy and sell through that company. But the company itself is incompetent and unreliable, and there's enough uncertainty in online retail that I see no reason to pay to compound that uncertainty because Etsy can't get its shit together.

I gave them four months. I see little reason to give them four more.

eclipse said...

http://www.etsy.com/storque/etsy-news/community-topics-some-thoughts-on-recently-listed-items-3332/

Mat apologizes for lousy communication, comments are closed on the article. discussion in forum only.

teawithfrodo said...

Baffled said:

Comments like this and the one bashing Tim Adam blow my mind. I find that anytime I come here and actually read this crap...the sellers who are bitching are the ones with very little sales. Why don't you all quit blaming Etsy for your lack of success and take some responsibility? There are MANY people on Etsy doing just fine despite all of the "horrible things" Etsy does. I think it's bullshit. Plain bullshit. If you suck and your sales have dropped...that's your own damn fault.

-----------------
First off, lots of the people complaining have had tons of sales, many of which have already left etsy.
I get the majority of my commissions off etsy, but I also plan on shifting to artfire. I take responsibility for my sales, but don't really like being lied to by a company that should be working for me (since the sellers are the ones who make etsy)

Even if we completely disregard the condescending tone the admin have constantly given us, they've lied to us time and again.
When I joined last year I was told (by admin) that relisting would GUARANTEE me a spot on the front page.
So getting the "well we lied to you all" response from the admin finished off with "hope that helps" really lets us know how admin really feels about the sellers.

Of course every time there is a post where people get unhappy with etsy it is shut down.
I went through 137 pages of comments and couldn't really find anything that warranted Matt to shut down the thread...other then the fact that etsy was getting a what for from the sellers.

but it's easier to just say the sellers don't have sales.
Of course most of them don't have sales on etsy, the have other successful sites. They wanted to get mroe exposure with etsy but are just getting dicked around by admin.

blip said...

I do pretty well. Sales wise. I have never renewed. I stand by my opinion. I'm glad the chronic renewers will be shut down. Make something new every day, instead of renewing the same items 5 times a week.

forum rubbernecker said...

but it's easier to just say the sellers don't have sales.
Of course most of them don't have sales on etsy, the have other successful sites. They wanted to get mroe exposure with etsy but are just getting dicked around by admin.
_______
Exactly frodo! But who the heck cares how many sales someone has?
Dumbest argument ever!
WE ALL PAY THE SAME LISTING FEES and are all members. That's our admission ticket to voice concerns.
And baffled, I don't know who you are, but telling people to work harder is stupid. The problem is, and I will use first grade primer language so you understand:

Dick and Jane pay money to Etsy to list their stuff.
Dick and Jane used to see their stuff go buy on the front page scroll.
Sometimes Mrs. Buyer used to see their stuff and buy it.
Now Dick and Jane don't see their stuff.
Now Mrs. Buyer doesn't see their stuff and she doesn't buy it.
Dick and Jane are getting less for their money.
Dick and Jane want to know why and asked admin.
Mrs. Buyer is forced to either use the crummy search (heaven forbid) or go to the Front Page or Gift Guides.
This makes the sellers on the Front Page and in the Gift Guides very happy.
Admin likes the sellers on the Front Page and in the Gift Guides, so this makes Admin happy.
Dick and Jane are not happy. They are told to "work hard".
Dick and Jane are confused, because they do not remember asking for a critique of their work habits, which have always been very good.

That is why we care.

smores said...

Totally agree with what so done with etsy by now said. Why continue to be a sucker for punishment? I also understand the need to vent and bitch, but at some point you have to ask yourself why you're expending so much energy on someplace that drives you nuts!? If it's just dissapointment after dissapointment, year after year, why not just move on? Get rid of them!