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"People people it is all about clicks. Not your shop, not your sales. Just generating clicks. Oh and listing and relisting, secondarily.
If you don't sell anything, so what? You can relist it (more $) .
Circles and treasuries and teams? All about more clicks, not sales. Not community, clicks.
Maybe if all sellers promised to just click 100 times a day ..."
Tuesday, April 5, 2011
Quotables: Clickalicious
Posted by Morrigan at 7:44 PM
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35 Comments:
Of course it's all about clicks. That's all the investors care about. The more clicks, the more valuable the site. Who cares if no one makes a dime and just spends money funding this sham. If the sellers were all smart, they would boycott Etsy and it's con man founder Kalin (aka Rokali)
Sadly, it's so very true. Etsy does not care about sellers, as long as they list and list often. Other than that, they are in it for the clicks, which is why the site has been increasingly more difficult to navigate.
Does anyone know if visits to and posts on the forums count as "clicks"? Might be a way to help people break their "If only Etsy would listen to us and do X!" addictions..... me included, come to that, although I'm mostly gone anyway. :-(
Those clicks are very important to the new advertising that will be coming to etsy soon.
You don't think they added that new board member from ebay because she likes hand made, did you?
Clicks and tequila.
http://austin2011.sched.org/event/aab9e7b2273fae1d6bcb0f2a1f5d058b
Permanent, any visit to Etsy counts as clicks because it takes a bunch of them to get anywhere and do anything.
Etsy is a beautiful site visually, and it sucks you right in, like a slow addiction. I have perfected my photos & work hard on my descriptions. It seems that there are a few vintage sellers that make money * Etsy sweethearts and such * and there are some beautiful pieces from Artists that are available. But, for the most part it is essentially a rich-girl's hobby. I have been stuck at 69 sales for over a month and have new listings daily. I am in Circles and Teams and I make Treasuries and I Tweet and I FB...on and on. Quit your day job? I don't think so! Unless I am on the front page as a Featured Seller, I doubt much will change. Sickening, really.
PermanentEtsyVacation said...
Does anyone know if visits to and posts on the forums count as "clicks"? Might be a way to help people break their "If only Etsy would listen to us and do X!" addictions..... me included, come to that, although I'm mostly gone anyway. :-(
--------
I am sure they're adding the forum clicks to the grand total, to inflate numbers.
the clicks only help the favs on the front page, the rest of us don't even get any clicks...just a couple when i relist. I'm just so tired of licking the spoon.
Etsy is getting worst and worst.
Nothing going on anymore.
Yup - advertising is coming to Etsy. Only they won't call it "advertising." Sellers will get special opportunities to become "sponsors." And it will be so wonderful, because with all that data mining ala Facebook, you'll be able to target those sponsorships to JUST the right people; like brides-to-be who only want to spend $200 on a wedding dress.
If you want your stuff to show up on every page on Etsy like Google and Facebook ads, just get an Artfire shop. Their sellers' listings show on all their forum pages - they just don't charge extra for it.
Call it what you want, but don't let them fool you, everything that is being done is for a purpose. The anger, poor service,lack of knowledge and help, and on and on... The etsy higher ups are loving the free publicity - bad or good - because it brings those people who never heard of etsy right to their front doorstep, if nothing else than to see what is going on. Other sites like Artfire, Amdrm, Bonanza ... sitting and waiting, hoping for the mass migration away from etsy. Until people really get a clue they will frequent etsy and continue to keep their clicks going. The old adage of 'go where you are taken care of' does not apply to the instant tech world, this world is more interested in seeing the bad things and supporting them rather than looking for the good and helping build them. It is more 'fun' to poke at what is going wrong, support it and try to change it than finding another venue and putting the hateful energy into building something good. Maybe people will start to see things differently, but I doubt it. That does give this blog and others like it a boost for their business and I guess if nothing else, that is a good thing.
"allseeing said...
Call it what you want, but don't let them fool you, everything that is being done is for a purpose. The anger, poor service,lack of knowledge and help, and on and on... The etsy higher ups are loving the free publicity - bad or good - because it brings those people who never heard of etsy right to their front doorstep, if nothing else than to see what is going on. "
Yep. And what sucks the most about this, is that Etsy could be 10 times more successful by simply treating sellers right and making the site easy for buyers to use. They had everyone on board at the beginning (including me), talking, blogging, commenting... everything advertising. It's how the site blew up to begin with. If they had simply listened to their customers and made changes as they could (not stupid ones, the actual changes we ask for), they would have a literal army of zealots advertising, blogging, tweeting, talking... about Etsy as THE place to buy handmade, the most fantastic company, the best customer service, yada yada.
So, they chose the low road of quick $ and bad publicity. Shame on them.
Etsy really is an experiment. All those engineer boys at SxSW are proof of that. Some cool toys to show their other engineering friends.
Functionality is so damn boring.
I've also heard "sponsorships" are coming soon. Ask Fake and Wilson. They are the masterminds behind it. Kalin is too busy to click, he's sharpening his knife.
Not everyone here at Etsy is pleased with the lousy attitude of our management. There's always been problems here, but at least at one time they cared about the sellers. Now it's all about getting rich and fuck everyone else. And it's gotten worse with all these Yahoo alumni that Chad keeps bringing in. Oh yeah, and they've been tracking everything that you do on the site, so privacy is a total sham.
Rokali's Victim,
the problem is that, even if ALL us "old timers" left the place TODAY, there's always a new bunch of suckers who are signing up every day.
Etsy wouldn't notice us gone.
because of the keeping of our data hostage "indefinitely" I can't simply close my account, it's going to be in vacation mode a really really long time.
A buyer only account observed in the forums that when he did a search under a common first name, 7 out of 10 of the shops that came up were empty. I think that is a very significant statistic.
It's no surprise for those who have been following EB and Regretsy that Etsy is a mess on the inside because it's been leaking to the outside for 24 months! Don't think this shit doesn't get out to shoppers --- the fans of the original Etsy are well aware of the current implosion.
Sure, it could be that mgrs are not listening to their own employees, but WTF, they haven't been listening to sellers FOR YEARS! You complain? Try it out as a seller.
What Etsy is today is so far from the original concept that it should be barred by law from using the word "handmade" anywhere on the site.
Spending 20 cents at this point is no better than tossing coins in a trash compactor.
Here's a new quote for you: When asked by GreenMamba about whether the privacy settings would ever become opt-in (instead of opt-out) and if not, why, Rokali responded, "Happy to answer this. First, can you define what you mean by "all privacy related information and features"? "
From there it only got more obtuse. :-(
Recap here: http://www.etsy.com/teams/7714/ideas/discuss/6847452/page/11/?post_id=60816677#
http://www.etsy.com/teams/7714/ideas/discuss/6847452/page/11/?post_id=60816677#
Him speak with forked tongue.
trinlayk,
Just as a statistic that tells a lot about Etsy, considering that they get close to 30 million pageviews per day and over 2 million visits per day, there are only about 40,000 completed sales per day (about 2 percent of all visits). Not really a great place to be selling I would think.
OK, I get it now. Rob Kalin was the Lead Designer for the new taste test that now has taken over the FP. So don't be impressed that he was online until midnight answering questions. His ego wanted confirmation-he did not get it. He does not get it- we just want a beautiful place to sell our goods. Buyers are busy adults with little time and little patience for time wasters. Simple really.
The TT has Nothing to do with selling, just clicking. As a matter of fact, many of the items are sold, reserved, copy write infringement or resellers. The selections come from an algorythm of hearts,views, circles- guess who those items belong to- FP regulars. Screwed again.
The emperor is wearing no clothes, yet no one will tell him. Not all ideas are good ideas. Too bad his ego will be his downfall-
"The higher we are placed, the more humbly we should walk.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero
Every single click counts- including the five it takes to list each item. They bump up clicks left and right by making you click 2x where one would do the trick.
Pam says :
Etsy is a beautiful site visually, and it sucks you right in, like a slow addiction.
Check out their new home page when you are not logged in. It looks horrible. It's the new sellers who see that and it is a real turn off
I just talked to a large group of people looking for great wedding gifts, many of them already familiar with Etsy. Every single one of them said they visited Etsy in the last week and were so shocked at the changes on the site that they asked for advice on where else to shop.
Quite different from just a year ago and weddings isn't the only category that's been thrown in the shit.
The anti-shopper, anti-seller changes are so dramatic, including the "customized new FP" (which you can't turn off once it's turned on) that it's only a matter of time.
Let's speed that up - no more listing! This is where the meat of their profits are, so let's remove the meat from the table.
@ DisgruntledetsyInsider, Chad, in my oppinion and any peeps brought in by HIM is Frake's doing. The timing jives with an exodus from Yahoo in 2008.
Is there anyway of telling if the decisions are Kalin's or Breyer's? I have reasons for believing that Breyer is calling the shots.
Do you feel that some of the "Underbelly" articles that have begun to crop up within the rest of cyberland, are having any sort of impact?
I've read "hints" that there COULD BE a future Goldman Sachs "private offshore" investment. I figure that a relationship HAS been established via the recent deal with Facebook. Breyer is at the helm of both.
With the tragic sell through rate that you quoted, any sale of the site will only wind up hurting our already shaky economy, and put all sorts of what should be confidential information "OFFSHORE", along with keeping the company private and thus allowing the nasty practices to continue.
@youcanthandlethetruth, aren't Frake and Wilson minor investors, when compared to the money that Breyer/Accel have pumped in? Or does some of Accel's funding come from "their" pockets?
@allseeing, I haven't seen a site, yet, that isn't riddled with corruption.
Personally, i believe that the lot of them "HAVE VISIONS OF MEG AND PIERRE" that dance in their heads.
Sellers essentially only really represent risk free inventory to any of them.
IF ANY venue is a bit different, it would have to be eCrater. They are completely free. But they seem to be losing traction with each new shift in the Google algorhythm improvements.
Ok, I have a question for anyone brave enough to answer, I will be upfront first, I have been building a handmade site for buyers and sellers, I was not around when esty started, but I keep hearing that is was great back then. Sooo.. tell me what was it that was great so long ago. I will incorporate as much of that into our site as I can, I sold on etsy within the past 2 years, I know what it is like now, and that is why I started our site, www.Amdrm.com I hope that was ok mr moderator. You can even post my email address jeff@amdrm.com send me your comments and suggestions, we have been up and running since Jan this year. We may not be as fast as etsy to add features, but it certainly will be features that our customers want. We are family run so no outside money pushing buttons. We are about buying and selling. come and see for yoruself. Quit complaining about etsy, no sales and do something about it !!!
Be careful with ecrater. It is an extremely insecure site.
Oh, look, it's Rokali's birthday, apparently.
How about some birthday love for him? Heh heh.
http://www.etsy.com/teams/7714/ideas/discuss/6851434/
@Joe, I have items listed on eCrater. I get next to no views and it continues to get worse. I find the people stand offish and TOO rule happy. I have a presense there, but have also noticed that they have been losing traffic rank on an ongoing basis ever since the uploads to Google products got shifted to the venues.
I check out Alexa.com stats on the lot of them on a very regular basis.
I personally believe that the lot of them border upon fraud. The seller contracts are nothing more than a complete relinquishing of any legal rights and the venue owners view sellers as risk free inventory.
In my oppinion, there is NO way to create viable business plans since the lot of them shift whatever it is that they do behind the scenes on an ongoing basis.
What I do like about ecrater is that the shops are essentially stand alone. They do NOT have the continually increasing exit ramps as do Etsy and Bonanza just recently added "You might also Like" listings at the bottom.
They are ALL full of shit. They're nice to the sellers while they're new because they NEED to be. As soon as they can get funding or have enough revenue coming in the sellers become expendable.
@forthehellofitsaid
It's pretty clear that Fake was a key factor in bringing all these clowns from Yahoo. It hasn't been good for the company eityer. And they just keep coming.
Kalin dismisses all the negative press, but he's not living in the real world anyway. Most of the others just don't give a damn. After all, they keep making money (even if no one else does). Kalin still believe, in his warped pea brain mind, that nothing is wrong and that social commerce is a good thing. Of course, a lot of that is because his strings are being pulled by Wilson.
As for the board, they are clearly the ones that are calling the shots. But Kalin is just a cheerleader for them and the only reason they keep him around is that they need him for publicity purposes. He keeps talking about an IPO next year and how everyone is going to get rich from it, but I doubt that includes the Etsy sellers.
Kalin is alienating a lot of people these days because of his attitude that he's better than everyone else. His day will come and then the world will see what a con artist he really is.
@Disgruntled, I am overjoyed that you wandered back and have taken the time to respond to me.
Well, as far as Kalin's attitude, it doesn't exactly help when Wilson keeps defending his behaviors by reassuring the readers within the AVC blog that Kalin is wonderful.
But don't ANY of them see that Enron was once thought to be good? Are Wilson and Breyer living in fantasy land also?
How stupid do the lot of them take us all for?
The last 20 or so years of arrogance based business decisions are beginning to completely trash the global economy.
I personally feel that the board will eventually turn on Kalin, when whatever usefullness he represents has run its course.
IPO? dicey. Breyer just brokered a deal via Goldman Sachs for private offshore investors to buy into Facebook. The openness of a publicly traded company might nt do Etsy any good. I'm leaning towards another Goldman Sachs maneuver for Etsy, too.
@forthehellofit
your comments about 'all' marketplace venues being like etsy, artfire and bonanza are generalized. I agree that many of these larger venues must meet the demands of their cash cows and answer to number crunchers. That is the first problem with many of them, all glitz and glitter and no substance. They will tell their customers what they can and cannot do and what they think the customer wants to hear.
Yes new companies need to be nice to sellers and buyers (all customers) as they have to build their base and maintain a cash flow, in order to be able to provide for these customers needs. We have been in the manufacturing business for a number of years and strated with $200 and lots of energy, customer service and internal growth is what allowed us to become successful. As we are now, and I appreciate you publishing my last post, building another business on the same principals. Amdrm is being built without any loans or outside funding, we have and will maintain complete control over how we grow the site. That is to say we listen to our customers, because the way we have done business over the years is with customer service first. We have set up a base site to work with as we do not have the backing that these other companies have, thus we may not have all the features right now, but that is not a bad thing. We will add the things our customer base deems important. In our eyes the most important thing to start off with is the sales end of things, otherwise why bother.
It bothers me more than anything to hear the complaints about other sites, yet the same people continue to support these venues. Why not open your eyes and look around. It is obvious, at least to me that the board of directors of many of these other venues have alterior motives in mind and are not changing.
@Jeff, as I stated, all venues sell a "bill of goods". Sellers choose to remain with a given venue if their items sell. Site traffic is one of the single largest determinates as to whether sellers will move product.
What are your plans towards building up traffic for your hoped for sellers?
What plans do you have on the drawing board that will help you differentiate yourself from the already known artisan/indie sites?
There are time factors that need to be absorbed by seller bases as they are coaxed onto each new site?
IF they tranfer inventories, while leaving the same items listed within an evergrowing string of venues, they risk having their items removed from Google Products due to Google's duplicate listing policies.
I've timed out the entirety of getting a new item listed. There is a minimal of a half hour's labor.
Quite frankly, I don't want to use up anymore of my time making suggestions to newbie venue owners. I would like to see one of you put in the time, do the research and present me with a working and viable finnished product.
I would like to see some form of a measurable show of ethics.
I would like to see a "terms of use" contract that has protections built in for the seller, that are written in laymen's terms, as opposed to the double speak, sell your rights away, versions currently in use.
I want to see a venue that is willing to put their butts on the legal line, and one that is willing to stand behind their sellers or one that is willing to be directly involved as a potential liason, when needed to insure the protections of both the seller and the buyer.
Show me a venue that has done its homework and has its practices aligned with Paypal, the Post Office, Google, and whatever other supporting vehicle that needs to be employed by a seller base in order to get their end accomplished.
Show me a finished product. Talk is cheap. I've grown tired from attempting to keep pace with the continual cyber hoops that need to be navigated.
I hope you all are taking notes today for your next clickalicious post.
The red headed tyrant is on a roll.
Points well made forthehellofit, but new sites that continue to base their formats on Etsy keep leaving out the other part of the equation - the distinct qualities of the handmade product. They've all taken the commercial-product ecommerce model and forced it on handmade, and it never fit - & what better example than Etsy, overtaken by resellers? (invited by Etsy)
It's a lazy approach, and assumes that the same forces pushing commercial sales applies to handmade, including the farce that social networking drives sales for handmade products.
The problem after 7 years of selling handmade online is that none of the sites get it right. They've set up tools and gimmicks which do not work for selling handmade - and have, in fact, hidden the unique qualities of the handmade product behind a bunch of retail tricks that do not work.
What we have instead are sites full of mass-produced, low-priced, low-quality, maybe handmade products that have so diluted the definition of handmade that it's driven both quality and pricing down the toilet. Consumers have been fleeced into thinking that handmade it just another mass-produced product that gets cheaper next year.
Every site has forgotten about the product they profess to sell -- and handmade has suffered probably forever.
Selling handmade is not at all like selling any other product, but no one has come up with the solution. Sellers who lament about not selling on these sites should be asking ---- why are the sites doing such a half-assed job at pushing sales for handmade?
@The Funny One, sites will continue to copy aspects of Etsy to try to build up their own traffic rank. Artfire does it as does Bonanza. Bill Harding has an Etsy ID and even posted in a thread way back when.
I currently am selling vintage but fail to understand why marketing from a perspective of supporting small and local people never seems to enter int the mix.
I never see any marketing efforts towards glorifying the uniqueness of either the vintage or handcrafted.
Green is in, as is suspicion towards big business. <---- Neither of these angles are worked.
The artisan sites are also miles away from getting their products decent representation in Google. Bonanza and eCrater both blow the artisan sites out of the water with regards to getting a high percentage of the items into Google products.
Both eCrater and Bonanza have incorporated batch editing tools for adding the official Google Attributes and have their overall catagories more closely aligned according to industry standards to help ANY item make it into the "shopping end" of Google searches.
I would personally love to see an artisan site do the do and set up truly workable catagories that act as a bit of a liason to have items listed in "laymen's terms" and a strengthening of their word choices for the word "handmade". Buy a stinking thesarous and consider the use of ARTISAN, HAND CRAFTED, EXCLUSIVE DESIGN, DESIGNED BY, HAND MILLED, etc., etc., etc.
Kalin, personally comes off a fool when he "disses" big business, publicly while holding out his hand to beg money from the VC world.
I personally see no good reason why investor money should wind up trashing a given site. Well, if the given CEO's could do some research towards who they take the money from OR do a better freaking job in getting their sites up to speed technically so to better position themselves towards NOT losing control to the investors. I don't condemn the investors. IF they wind up calling the shots, that was due to failings in the CEO.
IF I handed $30,000,000 to a company, You'd better believe that I would be all over their shit, and would be expecting to see a return. I'm also guessing that the VC peeps are soliceting funding from private areas and also have a need to answer for their actions, to someone bigger and badder, too.
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